Tuesday, March 25, 2008

Catholic Church Demand Input in Schools.

The catholic Church in this country is a dying dinosaur, it just doesn't know it yet. Personally I am against religion being taught in schools, but understand that if a person sends their child to a religious school then that person must allow for the dogma to be imparted on their child.
However if a person's child attends a nondenominational school, well then, shoo religious folk, shoo.
Right?
Wrong, for this is Ireland and the dinosaur while waddling into the tar pit, still has fangs.
The church has made a list of demands
however the INTO are up in arm about it and quite right.
The church do not pay the wages of the teachers, the state does. So who are they to make demands in such a fashion? They want half an hours religious education taught a day, emphasising the moral upbringing of children, and this bothers me to. Surely the moral upbringing of children should rest with their parents and should not go hand in hand with filling children' heads with rubbish.
I might be the wrong person to ask as I would be resolutely anti poppycock, so the notion of telling children about sin and angels and god and other religious mumbo jumbo in a nondenominational school chafes me something rotten.
These schools will have children of every faith and creed. Why should the catholic church have sway over it? Why not half and hour teaching how to be open and loving and understanding of different faiths? Why does the CC get top tier? How can they demand 'non-negotiable" anything?
meh, like I said I might be the wrong person, but I think they have a bit of a cheek making demands. Lets break the stranglehold. Let's start here.

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51 Comments:

Blogger Twenty Major said...

Aye, imagine the top dogs of the Muslim church or the Chief Rabbi making the same demands.

8:58 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Right, there would be uproar.

9:04 a.m.  
Anonymous John B said...

This makes me sick. I'm fucking furious. We've had enough trouble trying to find a school that doesn't teach religion as it is.

By the way your Indy link is broken. I think This one should work.

9:27 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My daughter, now 21, went to a non-denominational primary school in Cork and it was wonderful. A lot of parental involvement was necessary, and we had boys and girls in the classes (important for an only girl-child). The school celebrated holidays from various religions and any child who was involved in that religion brought in stuff to help educate their fellow pupils. My daughter was pretty well versed in several different religions. I went to a Quaker boarding school and the only requirement on Sunday was that you went to service, the school wasn't too bothered which one and it was really nice not to have to sit through another catholic service. I never made my confirmation (classes were held outside of school hours, which is what should be done in the case of these schools) and the teacher kicked me out because I asked too many "why" questions and didn't have any faith. My brother, when I was kicked out, walked out of class too, LOL, my parents really didn't give a hoot!
Orfy

9:51 a.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

Good morning, I can’t look at the link. Do they what the Catholic religion taught or just a few issues on morality. If it is the latter I’m definitely for it. Clearly parents are incapable of instilling morality, if the church even managed to instil a screed of empathy I’m for it. Besides the Catholic Church own the overwhelming majority of schools so until the church either buy them back or fund them entirely we are not really in a position to complain about them but non denomination schools is a bit different I guess.

9:56 a.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

“government buy them back” – sorry

9:58 a.m.  
Anonymous Babs said...

I went to a non denominational secondary school, we had religion classes, we learned about all of the different religions, about their beliefs, their traditions, their ways of doing things, it was lovely and made me a lot more aware as an adult.
I come from a mixed religion background, Catholic Mammy from a Catholic Granny and a Jewish Granddad and a Protestant Dad from Protestant Grandparents. I was "different" when I was in Primary school which was horrible but being different in Secondary School was great, I was interesting, well to the non-scumbags I was different. To the scumbags I was a fucking weirdo, but so was everyone who didn't wear a tracksuit and Nike Air Max as their "uniform".

10:10 a.m.  
Anonymous Nonny said...

Exploring different religions sounds good. Most put emphasis on respect, I like it.

10:23 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Nonny, this is the catholic church wanting imput in Non Denominational schools, ones they don't own.
John B thanks, fixed.

11:22 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

As a disclosure I attended Catholic boarding school and always resented religion being forced down my throat, especially since so much of it is down right ridiculous. Virgin births? Walking dead? Miracles? Too much for this cynic. Then they made us go to mass a couple of times a week, in the morning, early. I don't have the words to describe how that finished me off.
But there again I was attending a catholic school so you gotta go with the ethos. But they should have NO great say in a non religious school and this needs to be nipped in the bud quick smart.

11:26 a.m.  
Anonymous Nonny said...

I see. In general I think the Catholic Church have had enormously positive role in Irish education. Without the CC Irish people would not have had an education. With this though, then can hardly opt out of the responsibility of running the school but at the same time insist on the schools adopting their policies. That’s a bit rich now.

You really have a great deal of contempt for the Church. You must have only encountered a shower of shites along your way. I agree the people at the top are corrupt and full of shit but most of the nuns that taught me were nothing short of lovely. I actually remember the principal (she was not a nun) of our secondary schools trying to make us watch a video of an abortion to turn us off ever considering it, it was third year and I had just turned 14. A little sister barged in, I think she was about 120 turned off the video player and told the principal it would be a mortal sin to subject young ladies to such a thing. They aren’t all bad. I guess bad/good experiences will form the basis of your opinions.

11:53 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I don't have contempt for the church- a lot of good is done by religious folk. I have nothing but contempt for mumbo jumbo, big difference.

12:03 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

I don’t understand what you mean.

12:06 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

You know, gods, mortal sin, purgatory-all though I believe that one has been tossed by the way side- virgin births, saints, angels, heaven and hell, damnation, babies needing to be baptised because their suffering from sin already, confession, all that hogwash. I would be firmly against teaching children any of that nonsense.

12:12 p.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

The people of Ireland gave the CC a load of money to buy land and build enormous empty churches. The cathedral of St. Mary in Kilkenny was started in 1843 and continued to be built while one in every 9 Irish people died of starvation. In Maynooth, the Irish people had to buy the land off the church to build the National University of Ireland - land that was given to then in the first instance by the people of Ireland. I'm no catholic, but the naked greed of the CC sometimes astonishes me. The protestant religion was started in the first place by Martin Luther after he visited Rome and saw the decadent greed of the CC - naturally he was excommunicated. Once again we are seeing it - using their financial leverage to get to the youngest in society. Sick, I say.

Nonny- as a a parent I resent your assertion that "clearly parents are incapable of instilling morality". Really? Maybe we should just put all children in some kind of an institution? Maybe we should give all our children to the catholic church. We know how much they love children.

12:41 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

I see, I get what you are saying. I suppose it would be difficult to decide what would be best for your children. Thankfully, that one can smoulder on the back burner for a while yet.

Sorry James, I did not mean all parents. Off course not all children are like this, some are exceptionally well mannered with a great deal of respect. It is just the ill mannered little shits seem to be grouping and gaining momentum. I mean the little shits won’t even hold a door for you.

12:55 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

Nonny, while the CC might indeed have been operating from truly altruistic motives by being the primary educators in Ireland for many years, if they were, it would be bucking thousands of years of Catholic tradition.

Instead I think their motives are a lot more like that Monty Python song "Get 'em as soon as they're warm". The earlier you can start indoctrinating a person with fairy stories, the longer it'll stick.

Plus, they had to justify crippling Ireland's poorest by demanding tithes somehow.

1:22 p.m.  
Blogger Medbh said...

Childhood is scary and awful enough without piling on fear of sin and hell by the old white dude in the sky.
Teaching them about basic morality and ethics can easily be done without religion.

1:42 p.m.  
Anonymous eva said...

Nonny, what's to say force feeding kids religion doesn't make them "ill mannered little shits"? Had I been forced to go to mass or something like that as a kid I would have certainly become anything but a saint..

1:51 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

I was not forced to go to mass but in school we were taught about religion, God, respect, and the two most important to me anyway, treating others as you would be treated and knowing that when the shit hits the fan feel free to pray like there is no tomorrow. I do not believe in God but I know that in some of the worst times in my life at some points I was quite literally on my knees praying. What do you do when you don’t have that? I think children need that kind of support. I’m sure all of the commenter’s here would have no problem instilling good, honest values in their children but sadly not all parents are like that. We can’t just write all those little children off and say, tough luck kiddo your parents were your only hope you’ve no chance now. Why should a child born to a drug addict, prostitute, thief, wife beater or simply a bad person be denied a second chance to learn goodness. They cannot be blamed for their parent’s failings. Religion is school’s seems to be the only safety net for those little pets. Perhaps my positive experience has left me bias.

2:27 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

You're not making any sense. If you don't believe in GOd what on earth are you praying to? IF you don't believe in god what 'support' did you get?

2:37 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

When I was a small child I would have believed in God so you would have thought God was minding you or watching you. I just remember having a miss carriage a couple of years ago and I had to wait and wait to know what was going to happen and for some reason, a moment of madness most probably I was praying like a mofo. I think if I hadn’t have been praying I would have been screaming. Are you honestly telling me having gone to a Catholic School that at not point in your life have you said, Oh please God don’t let that happen? Honestly, now? I am not trying to catch you out I just would really like to know.

2:53 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I say 'oh god' all the time, but just as a figure of speech. Same way as I am currently saying 'motherfucker' a lot.
I might have prayed as youth when the shit his the fan but certainly not once since it occurred to me I didn't believe in a god. That would be rather a pointless exercise, so that's why I asked why do you do it?
But this is all veering into the personal, and my post wasn't about the personal, it was about why the hell the catholic church feels it has a right to demand a lay school give it special privileges.
And also I have to get back to work.

3:02 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

Ok just one thing and then I won't say anything else I promise. I was 21 when that happened to me perhaps I was naïve or temporarily insane or I don’t fucking know the point is I was on my own and praying was the only thing that kept me together just like I’m sure when it kept you together in your youth. So how can we take that away from kids, especially kids that don't have good parents? As I said you might be a good mother and there for your children but, not everybody is like you. Thus bringing us back to the original point, kids need religion, it instils vales and the big bad CC is the only ones not only willing to do it for free but with significant cost to the church.

Right. I'm done now. Erm sorry. Have a nice day.

3:35 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Nonny, that's just bullshit. Why not just tell them a unicorn will help them get through the tough times, or a fairy? It's all a big fucking lie. Plus guilting children into believing in something is bogus as hell.
If people need a crutch to get them through tough times they'll find their crutch, frankly I like a drink after a rough day. Should we impress upon young mind that alcohol helps a melt down too?
You found praying helped you when things were tough, great. But if you hadn't have every been force fed a diet of god from when you were yea high,you'd have found something else.

3:45 p.m.  
Anonymous Shebah said...

Religion is brainwashing, pure and simple. Wasn't it the Jesuits who said give me the boy until he is seven and I will give you the man?
The good Irish education came at a big price - yes we did well in exams and got a good grounding in the 3Rs, but we also have a permanent brain washing problem that is difficult to overcome. We were not educated to have independent thought, but to swall whole the mumbo jumbo. The stranglehold religious orders held over the Irish people was horrendous and some of the ghastly immoral practices of those religious teachers are still coming to light. I believe people should have lessons about religion, in a history and global context - they should be made aware of the tenets of all the world religions in order to understand where all the fuckwits are coming from.

3:53 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

Nonny, just because you need a thing to be true, does not make it true. We're humans adnd we like to be in control of our lives and, sure, there are times in everybody's lives when things are so far out of their own control that they might appeal to some higher power to help them through. This does not make that higher power a fact.

Whether you intend it to be or not, your argument sounds very like a "God exists because people need Him" argument. The church's view is that God exists, full stop. They believe God is the primary mover, He made people and we ought to believe in Him whether it is in our best interests or not.

The CC did not do a very good job in getting this message through to you in school if you think God is merely a comforting idea when things go wrong.

4:12 p.m.  
Anonymous nonny said...

Hold on, you found it helped you as well so how can I be talking shit? How is it ok for you to believe when you were young but not ok for today’s children? I do not understand that logic at all. Assuming that what you publish on your blog is the truth and not some fictional character, you are a fully-grown women, you write with overwhelming honesty and seem to have the utmost respect for others. You went to a Catholic Boarding Schools; you would have had significant influence from the Church, so how can you deem the Church a bad thing? how can you say it is bad for children? how can you say is does not have a positive influence on them? Just look at yourself you are shining example, a product of a Catholic Church. You did ok. I’m not being gay about it, you know what I mean.

I don't think religon is the answer to all out troubles but it is certainly not the root them.

4:23 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Shebah brainwashing is exactly it. Force fed a diet of claptrap from an early age, no wonder the CC have their knickers in a twist over the new schools. They feel their power-base slipping.

Sam-Quite right. The God of the Old Testament is an absolute psycho. And Jesus himself wasn't exactly meek and mild either, no matter what way folk want to paint him.

Fark me, some days I farking hate work, this is one of them.

4:26 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Why would you assume anything about me? Why would it concern you who I might be other than who I say I am? What I write here is what I genuinely think and what I think is lying to children and laying a guilt trip on them to FORCE them to believe in an non existent deity is wrong. I can't explain it any better than that Nonny, really I can't.

4:31 p.m.  
Anonymous Nonny said...

And sweet Jesus, kids that don't believe is fairy's fucken hell that is terrible. What is wrong with you people? What happened to stimulating their imagination.

** Runs home to kill 2 and a half year old niece who swears blind it is the Fairy who write on Aunty Nonny's walls whilst I am in work.

4:34 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

Religion is not the root of all evil, human nature is. But religion is a very strong candidate for being the trunk and mainstay of evil in countless places around the world.

A child does not need to learn that a virgin gave birth to the son of God to know that there is a moral code, the chief anchor of which is the Golden Rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to yourself. Don't be a prick if you don't want to be treated like one. There is a strong sense of fairness and justice that runs through humankind and while centuries, the church did play some role in stabilising society to the point that we could discover and develop the notion of humanism, this was incidental. Te church is a self-serving organisation, first and foremost. Dit needs believers in order to survive and that is why it abhors freedom of thought. It runs on the promise of damnation if you don't comply. Is fear really the noblest way man can operate to control people?

4:44 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

Children grow up to realise that fairies are make-believe Nonny. Many, many people never discover this abut religion, especially if tradition and society prefer they don't.

4:47 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

Also fairies don't demand that people go and die in their name. Fairies are benign, religion can be very very dangerous.

4:48 p.m.  
Anonymous Nonny said...

I really like your take on things Sam. I wish you would just get up earlier then there would be no arguments. Except for Fairy's. They rule!

Hey listen boss, I thought this just a light hearted dissagreement, no personal attacks by me were ever intended. I was just highlighting you as an example. Ahh fuck, I wrecked it and I have been so good keeping my mouth shut, sitting my hands and some such. Fuck it anyway.

5:04 p.m.  
Anonymous Sam, Problemchildbride said...

My first comment up there looks like it was at 1.22, but it was a 5.22am in California (our daylight savings time starts 3 weeks ahead of yours so we're only 7 as opposed to the usual 8 hours behind you). Insomnia. If I got up any earlier I'd be forced to catch a worm and I feckin' hate worms.

6:01 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Poor old darling, it's just a bugger is it not? I slept poorly last night too, although not as poorly as Finn who had cats yacking under her bed twice.
Plus the paramour seems to have learned a snoring scale, one he can even pull off when face down.
Horlicks, that's the answer, Horlicks, locked away cats and ear plugs.
Right back to work.

6:13 p.m.  
Blogger Medbh said...

FMC and Sam, you are patient beyond belief today.

7:45 p.m.  
Blogger Medbh said...

Off topic, FMC, I know you hate cucumbers, but isn't this a great use for one?

http://jezebel.com/372017/grandma-rapes-granddaughters-abuser-with-a-gourd?autoplay=true

7:55 p.m.  
Anonymous Common Law said...

It is, when you think about it, really messed up to get 28 five year olds in a room and claim that some stuff that probably didn't happen really, really did happen. If you don't have actual evidence it's kind of like....oh...I don't know... lying. At best it's supposition.

And with all respect to you Nonny, as a parent I'd personally much rather my kids screamed and got the emotion out.

8:44 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thou shalt not kill. A rule. Is it right or wrong?

Is that religious? No. So what's The class to be called. Human rights? Clearer about them is clearer about wrongs too.

Thinking Aloud (as opposed to restricted or absent)

9:33 p.m.  
Anonymous John B said...

Nonny, the missus had to tell me to shut up with the amount of times I was groaning at the computer screen throughout all these comments. I think I broke a record there. I was about to start arguing with you but methinks it would be futile.

FMC: Have you read Derren Brown's "Tricks of the Mind" yet? I think you'd really like it. The last third is a complete debunking of all that mumbo jumbo you love to hate.

10:17 p.m.  
Anonymous Fergal said...

I love the use of the term "non-negotiable", as if they had any bargaining power or moral authority to bring to bear.

Nonny, your argument seems to be that while you don't believe in it yourself, a bit of hocus pocus might be no harm to keep the lower orders in check, so that you don't have to endure the indignity of oiks not holding the door open for you. All the people who say they're glad the church is no longer all-powerful, but "can't help but feel" that something's been lost are essentially making the same argument. It's a commonly held view but that hardly makes it correct

10:56 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Evening, Medbh, I saw it. Can't understand how the police weren't interested in the case before the grandmother and her sisters took action.

CL- me too, get it out of your system no repression, no lies, no spiritual boogey man either.
John, not yet it's on my ever growing list, although I saw an amazing show he did last year on cold reading.

Fergal, welcome and quite right.

Right, goodnight, this fatcat is the wreck of the Hespa.

11:29 p.m.  
Blogger Mairéad said...

The point(s) is / are:
The CC "own" land that they never bought
They own schools that they never bought, never built
Local people donated, probably under veiled threat
Local people built
Local people paid
The government, i.e. the people, build, maintain, run schools, NOT the CC
The government, i.e. the people, pay teachers and all other staff
Primary teachers have to teach Religion for half an hour every day - free, no charge to the CC
The CC send out priestly inspectors - called diocesan advisors!! - to INSPECT the teachers' teaching of religion for which they do not pay!!
The CC expect primary teachers to prepare pupils for 3 sacraments during their primary school time - needing tremendous preparation, work and time. Very little else is taught during May of 2nd class, there is so much to do. This is wrong on many levels - especially if you're not a Catholic and there's no non-denom school near you. The priests should be preparing children for the sacraments, or at least helping, but they leave it all to the unpaid teachers.

That's all ridiculous and a disgrace in 2008.
Worse, the CC and lovely Mary H have been having secret little meetings about non-denominational schools, and made non-negotiable demands, which lovely, holy Mary, as a good Catholic girlin, will probably grant.......
Pathetic.

11:39 p.m.  
Anonymous Sheesh said...

One does not need religion, fairies, dream catchers, reiki, aura photography or repressing feelings in favour of any of the above "making it better" in order to be a decent human being. And some would argue that having a stick to be beaten with (original sin being my personal fave) does not make a good person - just one mindful of their own "salvation". That. Is. All. (Unclenches teeth ... just about.)

11:49 p.m.  
Blogger dublinstreams said...

if they want a say in the teachers so will every other religion with a student in the clas,but there are only so many teachers in each school.

but perhaps hanafin and the church want to say well they'll be mostly catholic so make it catholic teacher, ah all well with the world as the church suits itself and clearly isn't open to all faiths.

2:18 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Right Dublin Stream. Like I said in my original post, if you send your child to a Catholic Faith school you have to expect a Catholic ethos to be taught-to a certain extent, but as this issue arose over the creation of a nondenominational school I don't see how the CC can 'demand' anything. There should be no religious monopoly in a'lay' school. The school either encompasses a religious class for all faiths or none at all.

Sheesh, unclench Unclench, no good can come of clenching.

Mairéad, I see Hanafin is under fire for going back on her word while doing her usual ducking and diving, I'd say she might do well to keep her beak out of this one.

8:53 a.m.  
Anonymous Sheesh said...

Hee ... I'm a bit of a teeth-grinder. If I am fed up or hassled, I wake up with sore clenched jaws. Doesn't often happen when awake though!

9:39 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Hard on the teeth too I shouldn't wonder.

12:01 p.m.  
Blogger dublinstreams said...

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2008/03/church-not-looking-for-veto-on-re.html
“When a post is advertised for a teacher of religion, an interview board is set up, usually made up of five people. If the post is for a teacher of religious education, the patron has a right to have one nominee on the board. That is not a veto but an input,” he said.


ds- How could this possibly work in diverse school?

im looking everywhere for an explaination?

8:03 p.m.  

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