Monday, June 23, 2008

Learners, start your engines.

Learner drivers are running out of time to pass tests allowing them to drive on Irish roads, acording to this article in the Indo today.

"The new regulations, which come in from next Monday, mean drivers relying on a provisional licence for their own independent transport will be breaking the law.

Transport Minister Noel Dempsey's plans to rush in the crackdown last year were heavily criticised by drivers, who pleaded for extra time.

But figures suggest many have ignored the extra eight months given to pass their tests.

The latest data from the RSA showed that 20,476 drivers are on their sixth and subsequent provisional licence -- up from 15,239 a year previously.

Many of these are likely to be in their 40s and 50s who have been on provisional licences for many years."

It will be interesting to see what the outcome to this will be. I know more than one learner driver waiting for a test who probably won't make the deadline. One of them is lucky- in the sense that he doesn't rely on his car for work, but the other does and she's hardly going to NOT use her car or drive accompanied.
Speaking of accompanied.

"Meanwhile an accompanied driver must have passed their test at least two years earlier and must be licensed to drive that type of vehicle."

What does that mean exactly? It's not enough to have passed a driving test? What? I don't get it. If you have a full licence surely that is that? If you have a full licence and insurance and you car is taxed where does two years come in? I wonder did they mean the person accompanying the L-driver, but even then what the hell has two years got to do with anything. Do people magically become brilliant driver after two years on the road?
Typical stupid additions. I'm all for less L-drivers on the roads, but if you've passed your test there should be no other ad-ons to your driving. You either hold a full licence or you don't.



Blogger JL Pagano said...

Yet another example of FF trying to look like they're doing something by effectively doing nothing.

By not heeding pleas for more time, Dempsey wants us to think he's doing whatever it takes to tackle road deaths, whereas in reality there will be just as little enforcement of these new laws as there was of the old ones, and the numbers of unqualified drivers out there will continue to rise.

God forbid we incorporate driving into the education system and ensure kids will sit their Leaving Cert as qualified drivers so that the backlog will decrease in the years to come.

7:38 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I agree completely JL, I often thought a driving ed class in school would be a good idea, instill comprehensive driving skills from an early age.

More and more people live in areas surrounding cities, and these people need to get to work one way or another. I'd be surprised if people who can legitimately on Sunday are going to be okay with not being allowed to do so on Monday morning. it's going to be a shambles.

7:47 a.m.  
Anonymous AM in Brussels said...

The thing about the learner driver having to be accompagnied by someone with a licence for more than 2 years makes sense to me.

The qualified driver is there to stop stupid mistakes being made. To act as a supervisor, so to speak.

So for me, allowing an 18 year old who has just passed their test to be the qualified driver for their friend who is learning is just as bad as not having any acompagnying driver.

At the end of the day, Ireland just needs to follow the driving-test system of most other European countries. Germany, Sweden, Finland, and Holland seem to have the most competant drivers, and the tests are strict and rigorous.

8:20 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Meanwhile an accompanied driver must have passed their test at least two years earlier and must be licensed to drive that type of vehicle."

You only have to be qualified for two years if you are diving with a learner. If you have a full licence you can drive on your own. If people are still waiting on tests they must have only applied in the last 8-10 wks as that is the average waiting time they have known about this since last August.

9:28 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

The chap I was talking about applied for his second test the same week he failed his first test and that was four months ago and still hasn't heard back.

And frankly I think a fully qualified driver should be able to drive or be a passenger with any time constrictions. I know there is no substitute for experience, but a magical two year time line shouldn't be a factor.

9:40 a.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

I can remember the great driving days (1970s) of no tax, no license, no insurance, no NCT... I don't think the road 'carnage' was any worse than it is today.

9:44 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Slower cars and a lot less of them. Though this could be countered with less safety features and very little use of seat belts. COme to think of it my mother drove a Ford Escort Mark 2 at very high speeds and I'm pretty sure we all pinged around the back of it like skittles.

9:48 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

RSA spokesman Brian Farrell said more than one-third of provisional drivers have applied for a driving test. With a rate of 12,000 tests being conducted per week, this represents just 10 weeks' work.

But he said many candidates are now getting called for a test much sooner than they might have expected, and as a result "are deferring their test or turning up poorly prepared".

He added: "Candidates need to realise that that they will now get called quickly."

However he said any driver who needs a test before the law changes on June 30 will be accommodated, even at short notice.

Absolute lies. I was just on to the RSA wondering where the test I applied for in February was and they offered me a slot on July 24th.

When I asked the young man on the phone about this pledge he just said 'We'll get you a test as early as we can but there's nothing available at your test centre until then'.

9:49 a.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

Worse roads too...

9:50 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

So basically L-driver you're pretty screwed after Monday for a month unless you have someone qualified with you?

9:52 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

Yes. I think if they say something in public then they need to honour it.

If the RSA spokesman says everyone will be accomodated 'even at short notice' and they make no effort to do so then they need to rethink what it is they're doing. I've been waiting since February for a test. So much for 10 weeks.

9:57 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

I just rang the RSA and they tell me that their spokesperson was 'misquoted' and what he meant was that only people who had applied back in November would be accomodated before June 30th. How convenient.

10:06 a.m.  
Anonymous Shebah said...

I find it extraordinary that learner drivers are allowed to drive on Irish roads unaccompanied. Are they allowed legally to do this, and do insurance companies insure them? My sister drove around Dublin for about a year on a learner license. In the UK learners with a provisional license have to be accompanied at all times by an experienced driver, and if they drive unacccompanied their insurance is void and they can be banned before they even get a license. All that and we still have carnage on the roads, mainly by young drivers under 25.

10:28 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

And when I do eventually get my test how am I supposed to get there? Will they come and pick me up?

10:33 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Bizarrely it depends on WHICH licence you're holding. A first provisional licence means you need someone in the car with you, but a SECOND but still provisional licence measn you can drive around as much as you like. This changed on Monday.
Of course it's daft that L drivers can drive around without a qualified driver with them, but having a cut off point with no regard to how many people are going to be inconvenienced is also daft.

10:34 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Dunno L Driver, you'll have to get someone to go with you.

10:35 a.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

When this came up a year ago, I was looking at Questions and Answers and some journalist was on the panel and she laughed as she said that she had failed her driving text three times and then proceeded to lambaste all and sundry about the length of the wiating times for a driving test.

She didn't even have a hint of irony in her voice.

I'm all for the 2-year thing too. In some countries, you have to put a green L-plate on your window for some time after you get your dirving licence to indicate that you are technically competent, but inexperienced. I know people that are crap drivers, but still they can pass their driving test. Sort-of like students getting good marks through cramming, but still they know nothing about the subject matter.

10:48 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“A first provisional licence means you need someone in the car with you, but a SECOND but still provisional licence measn you can drive around as much as you like”

This is not the case, it was only like this for a couple of months when new legislation was passed. Also I find it hard to believe anybody particularly in Dublin is waiting four months. If this is the case and he was to ring the RSA alerting them to this I have no doubt they would promptly issue a test date. People have known about this for 9 months they could have applied and sat the test at least twice within this time. People need to prepare, take lessons and do pre-tests, that is how to pass your test, that is how you will learn the rules of the road and be a safe driver. If you can’t pass a test then you shouldn’t be driving unaccompanied. Safety is paramount inconvenience is just unfortunate.

11:17 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

"Car drivers (category B) with a learner permit (or current provisional licence) must be accompanied at all times by, and be under the supervision of, someone with a current full driving licence to drive a car. (The only exception to this, is where the driver holds a second provisonal driving licence to drive a car, but this is being discontinued from 30 June 2008). If you get your first learner permit on or after 30 October 2007 you must be accompanied at all times by someone who has had a full driving licence for at least two years. The obligation to be accompanied by a qualified driver is set down in SI 352/99 Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999."


Docky, I'd be for something letting other road users be aware that the car in front is a new driver, or recently passed.

Failed three times eh, and yet driving around with nary a care in the world.
I've a full licence so this doesn't effect me, but I'd be interested to see what exactly will be the case on Monday when people who could -by law- drive on Sunday, can no longer do so 24 hours later.

11:28 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Car drivers (category B) with a learner permit (or current provisional licence) must be accompanied at all times by, and be under the supervision of, someone with a current full driving licence to drive a car. (The only exception to this, is where the driver holds a second provisonal driving licence to drive a car, but this is being discontinued from 30 June 2008). If you get your first learner permit on or after 30 October 2007 you must be accompanied at all times by someone who has had a full driving licence for at least two years. The obligation to be accompanied by a qualified driver is set down in SI 352/99 Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999."

This is fair enough, they gave people 9 mths to get their arses in gear and take the test. The deadline was always June 30th. There are no excuses. None.

11:35 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Apart from the backlog you mean.

11:37 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What backlog?? There is an average waiting time of 10 weeks and if people applied for their test in Nov when they were told clearly that 30th of June was the deadline they would have had their test well done by now. And if they have failed well then yes they should be accompanied. For God sake people are diving around with kids and everything having taken few or no lessons. It is disgraceful.

11:48 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

So what about someone like L-drive up the comments there. He applied in February, my pal in March, still no tests? I would consider that a bit of a backlog, wouldn't you?

11:51 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

This is fair enough, they gave people 9 mths to get their arses in gear and take the test. The deadline was always June 30th. There are no excuses. None.

Applied for my first test in September 07. I went to do it in January in one of the outsourced centres who, on the day, cancelled the test on me. Rang RSA to complain, they got me a quick re-test which happened in Feb. Failed that because I didn't reverse around a corner perfectly. Came straight home from that test and reapplied online.

Rang a month ago and was told my test would happen before the end of the June. I rang today and was told July 24th. So while I accept some responsibility for failing my first test, and I know the reversing around corners skill is absolutely crucial, they have been the ones to slow things up.

I'm not making excuses but if you're going to impose deadlines like that on people you have to provide them with the opportunity to make the deadlines.

11:51 a.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

For God sake people are diving around with kids and everything having taken few or no lessons. It is disgraceful.

Sorry, you carry on there. There's no point talking to a member of the 'Won't somebody think of the children' brigade.

11:56 a.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

"I know the reversing around corners skill is absolutely crucial"

Er, no, it isn't. I did it to pass my test on both occasions I passed my test. I've not done it since. It's a manouvre that would probably get a person done for dangerous driving in many circumstances. Reversing blind into possible oncoming traffic, why would you even attempt it?

11:59 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not but learners should not have kids in the car. People don't bother doing lessons or learning the rules of the road and expect to pass. Why didn't your friend apply in November? Your case L-driver was unfortunate. I would have rang them on a a daily basis until I got a date.

12:05 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Learners shouldn't have kids in their cars? Or inexperienced drivers? Because people don't always have the option.

12:09 p.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

@Conan, I wasn't being entirely serious about that. It still annoys me that I failed my test on something that I will rarely, if ever, do when I'm driving.

@Anon, when I rang last the lady assured me my test would be before the end of June. I don't have time to ring on a daily basis. It's an inconvenience, not the end of the world but it's all a bit half-arsed from the RSA, imo.

12:11 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Learners shouldn't have kids in their cars? Or inexperienced drivers? Because people don't always have the option.

What did these people do before they had a car? So do with put inconvenience before safety? Would you let your child in a car with an inexperienced driver or one has failed their test?

12:18 p.m.  
Anonymous sheepworrier said...

Reversing around corners is absolutely essential. Sometimes I reverse all the way to work, just to make sure I still have the neccesary skills...

I'd agree more with L-driver & FMC - it seems the gov mismanaged the whole operation, though it should never of got to this stage.

12:25 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Jesus, most of the people I know failed their test the first time.

Sheepie, like I say, it will be interesting to see what way it is enforced come Monday.

12:48 p.m.  
Anonymous L-Driver said...

I just heard the head of the RSA on the radio saying wait times across the country are 'seven and a half weeks'. What a liar.

1:26 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If people could apply and do their test next week they would still have something to complain about. Blame the government; blame the test centre or poor legislation. The bottom line is people need to do lessons and learn the rules of the road and obviously they are not doing that if they are failing. You need 8 marks to fail, that is you need to make 8 mistakes to fail. The person that said they failed for reversing around the corner, that is not true, you would have got a sheet highlighting a list of mistakes, you could not have got 8 marks for reversing around the corner. The issue is not just road fatalities either, progress is a huge factor, and a contributing factor to the traffic problem we have. Not knowing what gear to be in, not knowing how to stop properly, not knowing how to give way to other drivers. You have said it yourself on this blog; we are a nation off terrible drivers. We have the most lax driving rules in most of Europe. If people did lessons and practised they would pass their test and we would all be much safer on the roads, pedestrians and cyclists included.

L-driver ring the RSA head office. Not the locall line, ring their head office and tell them your story. I am SURE they will help you.

1:31 p.m.  
Anonymous sheepworrier said...

Anon: The previous system where unqualified drivers were allowed on the road for their entire lives without a full license is just as accountable. People were allowed to form and repeat bad habits until it was ingrained. To expect this situation to change overnight is simply not plausible. The change-over should've been handled better by government.

2:14 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know it was a bad system and that is why it changed and it wasn't over night either it was 9 months, they had nine months to apply that is more than resonable. And anyone who says they applied even six months ago and are still waiting on test dates are liars.

2:20 p.m.  
Anonymous sheepworrier said...

9 months to unlearn bad habits, save money for & book driving lessons, then book the test, for a fair slice of the population? I don't agree that was enough time, even assuming a 1st-time pass.

2:32 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The book is free and posted to every residence in Ireland in March 07. You can also ring the RSA and they will post a free copy directly to your door. A lesson costs 25-35 euro cheaper than Mc Donalds I'd say. Either way people should think of lessons just like paying road tax or insurance they are an essential cost with having a car. The new lesgislation was first brought about 18 mths ago. That is plenty of time, any longer would have been silly.

2:42 p.m.  
Anonymous Shebah said...

In the UK they have a points system, so no learner drive would fail the test if they got just one thing wrong, like reversing around a corner. So L driver has been very unlucky. There would have to be other factors also, leading the examiner to believe that the learner was not safe or competant. Sometimes they pass people who get several things wrong, but overall the examiner judges them to be safe to let loose on the roads. Every day I encounter drivers who should not be on the road so on this issue I think the Irish goverment are doing the right thing. I hate to see any person killed or injured on the roads because of incompetent driving, so the stricter the driving test, the better.

3:00 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Strict tests unfortunately don't stop people becoming inconsiderate arseholes on the road. And nearly EVERYONE drives too fast.

4:06 p.m.  
Blogger Caro said...

@Shebah - the Irish test is not strict at all. Anonymous is right when he(she)? says that it takes 8 minor faults or 3 major ones to fail. You can't be failed for not reversing around the corner correctly, you have to mess it up a couple of times (or commit other faults as well).

I passed my test first time round (only 2 minor faults on the sheet) and my boyfriend (who's Italian) used to ask me if I got my license in a fairground. The Irish standard just doesn't compare with other countries.

4:09 p.m.  
Anonymous lurker said...

Hello! I've been a lurker for a wee while (love the site) but thought i'd chip in re Shebahs comment.

You're almost right with the UK system, it's a little more complicated than just points. You can have up to 8(i think) minor errors (things like forgetting to check a blind spot maybe) but one major error and you're out. Major errors are usually things that cause the examiner to slam the brakes or take contol of the wheel, but also includes hitting the kerb at any time during your test.

So if you're reversing round a corner and you clip the kerb, it's an instant fail.

Failed my first test doing this :(

Not sure about the Irish system mind.

4:12 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And nearly EVERYONE drives too fast."

You are dead right darling that is why two thirds of them don't have a full licence. That is also why theses laws are needed and I might add why learners need to be accompanied. It will encourage them to make an effort to pass their test, they will most likely take lessons and read the rules of the road book therefore making better drivers. I was in hospital for 5 mths when I was knocked down, five shitty months, I was 14. My aunt was not that lucky she had come here for her sisters funeral and went back to London to her own after a guy going to fast failed to stop at a red light. The reason we have so many bad drivers has been because the laws have been so relaxed, these changes are a good thing. Put bias aside.

4:24 p.m.  
Anonymous Shebah said...

Lurker - Heh, I should have said "one minor thing" wrong - I was naturally assuming a certain level of competence before anyone would actually apply for and sit the test (and in the UK we have to pass the written test first) so if the examiner had to slam on the brakes or take over the wheel, then Jeez, that would indicate a hopeless case! LOL! I scraped the kerb with my hubcap when doing the reverse around the corner, but still passed - but he could obviously see I was a terrific driver! Har.

4:44 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Hey ho Lurker, welcome.
Shebah, I passed first time too, but my tester didn't say one word to me during the exam except to tell me where to go and what not, his face was like stone. I was convinced I'd failed, and going back into his office I was dragging my heels and trying to wrack my brain to see where I could have gone so horribly wrong. Then he passed my my sheet and gave me a big smile. I guess some folk just like to torture us.
On an entirely different prong, some people ought NEVER get behind the wheel of a car, ever, and the Spaniard is such a person. She had a test late last year and I've NEVER seen so many Xs on a page, this after she's had countless lessons. She gave up bothering to learn after that, reasoning-correctly- that the world might be safer if she remained a passenger.

4:52 p.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

The more this goes on, the more I'm with anonymous. It is very simple to me. Those that fail their tests are the real problem - not the government, not the law, not the test centres.

I see it all the time with university students "You asked the wrong question". "The questions were too hard". "I was unlucky, I thought you would ask a question on the eye, but you asked about the ear and I only studied for the eye". And yet, some students get first-class honours. And it is not luck.

Time to stop apologising for those people that won't take the time to get the right amount of tuition and put in the right amount of effort.

I am 100% sure that I can reverse around a corner properly 100% of the time. Unfair/unlucky doesn't come into it. Practice and good teaching and good skill levels are what counts. Whinging about all the external factors and claiming they created this situation is to deny the real reasons.

Wow, that was an animated comment.

4:56 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I'm no saying anonymous is wrong in thinking better driver means safer roads all round, but this is more about a cut off point for L drivers, the 24 hour jump from legal to illegal. The truth of the matter is it has been difficult for a lot of people to get tested, and it's only in recent months that the waiting time has come down slightly. A little more time and a little less sound bites might have gone a long way, at least until the back log was caught up.

Practice and good teaching are absolutely the way forward and as I said early on, I'd be all for driving ed starting in school.

5:03 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right on Sir Docky, practice make perfect and that's just it. Gay I know but never were truer words said. This time last year a guy appealed the C I gave him and when he got his C back he complained that he was old enough to be my father and who was I to give him a C. People are crazy.

5:20 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry for the harassment, it is not just 24 hrs they had 9 mths and 18 mths from the initial proposal.

5:22 p.m.  
Blogger Medbh said...

If I took a driving test anywhere now, I'm sure I'd fail it.
No question.

5:38 p.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

I completely agree with the driving classes in school thing. It is never going to happen though. Can you imagine the pay deal that would have to be struck to get this into schools? Also - who would teach it in the schools and who would pay for the cars/teachers/space on the timetable? It would be - by far - the most expensive subject on the curriculum. I don't want to pay for it.

5:42 p.m.  
Blogger laughykate said...

I know of someone who took the family's flash brand new car to his driving test. (This is eighties and before the days of learner and restricted licences).The guy had to drive a wee bit out of town for his test, and tester asked if he could have a drive of the car on the way back. And yes, he was awarded his licence.

10:20 p.m.  
Blogger Dr Maroon said...

See all these Dublin plated cars running around here, are you telling me that they don't have proper licences? Jesus Maria!
BTW, a scientist has proved that women's pretty little brains overheat when they try and drive a car and would be better served sitting quietly with a magazine.
Don't believe me? Watch them in supermarket car parks or roundabouts!

12:00 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I suppose they'd outsource it Docky, but the cost would be prohibitive.

LK, that's bloody cheeky of him!

DM, I read that report, but that only happens if women drive Nissan Micras, another scientist discovered if you put a women behind the wheel of a car with a higher engine capacity she will immediately drive brilliantly and confidently. Amazingly this scientist also found the reverse happened in men. Men are far safer in cars below 1000cc. Science, it's BRILLIANT!.

9:33 a.m.  
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7:34 p.m.  
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6:54 p.m.  
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6:58 a.m.  
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3:35 p.m.  
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5:04 p.m.  
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7:46 p.m.  
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9:40 p.m.  
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11:31 p.m.  
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3:05 a.m.  
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4:52 a.m.  
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7:08 p.m.  
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3:40 p.m.  
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5:49 p.m.  
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10:27 p.m.  
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3:37 a.m.  
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3:25 p.m.  
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8:29 p.m.  
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9:48 p.m.  
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11:03 a.m.  
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2:44 a.m.  
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3:46 p.m.  
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6:24 p.m.  
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7:44 p.m.  
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3:29 p.m.  
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1:55 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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12:33 p.m.  
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