Wednesday, July 16, 2008

Self-Defense or Undue Force.

What constitutes undue force?

If someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night and you practically decapitate them with a golf club you keep beside the bed specifically for protection, would that be considered undue force?
If you are out running/walking/getting the papers and someone grabs or tries to rob you and you almost break their jaw with an elbow, is that undue force?
If you catch someone trying to break into your car and you punch them in the side of the head hard enough to knock them down is that undue force?
If you come home from being out and find an aggressive drunk asleep in your front porch and the only way to get them off your property-and stop threatening your family- Is to almost break a mop handle over him, is THAT undue force?

Clearly I am confused as to what constitutes undue force and what constitutes self-defense. All of the above strike me as perfect acts of self-defense and protection of self and property, but according to a gal I was talking with over the weekend the situations described should end with nothing more than a call to the Gardai. She said anything more could be construed as 'undue force' and might very well end up with the self-defender being dragged into court!
(And since she's a barrister I'm inclined to believe her.)
But I can't get the conversation out of my head. I can't believe the law could be that skewed.
So how about it? Undue force or reasonably reaction?



Blogger sliabh said...

The courts in this country have said that you can beat a man acting suspiciously on your land, shoot him, reload and finish him off with a shot to the head as he tries to flee and still not be convicted of anything.

So I think the bar for undue force is set pretty high at the moment!

9:31 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Hmmm that's true actually. But surely that only applies to travellers. If a settled person broke in I might be in trouble, assuming I'm talking about me, which I'm not you know.

9:46 a.m.  
Blogger galwaywegian said...

I'm no expert, (stop sniggering down the back) but I think you are within your rights to hit them over the head with a barrister!

9:58 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Huzzah! She's light enough to swing too. Results all round so.

10:00 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tha lady is right, personally I think that as soon as a body enters your property or puts their hand on you it should be fair game. I don’t mean you should intentionally kill a person but you should be able to defend yourself. Put judiciary operated under Common Law so the many cases are open to interpretation but by and large you could well wind up in court. If you defended yourself and the judge or jury deem you actiots to be acceptable by a “reasonable man” the chances are you would have nothing to worry about but, say you leave a trap for an intruder like broken bottles or a vicious dog a court would most probably see that as a breach of your “duty of care”. In Ireland intruders/attackers rarely take cases against their victim.

I think the main worry with self defence is if you give the victim more rights you also give the attacker more rights, that could get very messy as most victims would not fight back. This happened to me about three weeks ago, walking from work to my car, just past the green some shit bag grabbed my bag, I am damn fit but I was carry 2 lever arch's and my case, needless to say when he grabed my bag I fell, it was a bit messy but I don't think I would have had the balls to hit him even if I hadn't fallen. I didn't even think I'd cry over something like that but did (Mostly over my make up mind). Anyway I just think giving the victim more rights would not benifit them.


10:08 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Unfortunately, not chasing after him was probably the safest thing you could have done, the miserable bastard. I hate thieves more than cabbage, I really do.

10:17 a.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

A vexatious case indeed.

10:29 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I wrote about that case at the time, and have my own views on it, mostly than when Nally FOLLOWED John Ward out to the road and shot him as he was crawling away, it went from manslaughter to murder. But that is just my own view.

10:35 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know I would lean on the side of Mr. Nally. They tormented him. I would have loving to beat the shit out of your man that night but when it came to it I was a big farking girl about it.


10:40 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

No, you sensibly didn't want to get hurt over a bag.

10:46 a.m.  
Blogger jothemama said...

I'm sure you've had this argument already, but it sounded to me like McNally had been systematically driven to paranoid insanity - they pushed him to the edge, I'm not sure what they were expecting.

As to the other, the only thing is, I would never want to have to kill anyone. Intenionally or accidentally.

I think Dobermans mightbe the answer - I heard a great story about a woman who was feeding her neighbour's pair of Dobermans. She noticed that only one of them was coming to eat and after a few times, she went in, and found a burglarin the bathtub, guarded by one of the dogs - they wouldn't let him go, and were taking turns going down for meals. He'd been there for two days!

10:54 a.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

I'm a bit confused by what you said, your barrister said that they would end with a call to the gardai. As in you've overstepped the self-defence part?

Personally i don't think any of the cases you mention are going too far, but I thought Padraig Nally went too far, if the intruder is incapacitated then you can call the guards and let them deal with it.
Shooting a wounded man as he's crawling away is murder in my book too.

10:56 a.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

"Your Honour, Atilla is normally a very quiet bull mastiff and likes nothing better than having screaming little children tickle his tummy and pull his tail and earsies.
However, when Mr Gouger broke into the house at 3am Atilla took it into his head that he was an unwelcome visitor and bi him extensively.
Since Mr Gouger was in the course of breaking the law on my property, trespassing with intent to commit a crime, I believe Atilla behaved as a good guard dog should."

10:58 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I agree the poor man was driven demented, but it took time to shoot, reload and then follow a shot man out onto the road an shoot him again. I suppose it's hard to imagine what state of mind he was in, and coming from farming stock myself I understand how isolating it can be for 'bachelor farmer'-we had plenty of them round my way. Most of the fiercely guarded and anxious about being robbed or assaulted.

That other story is so funny. Dobermans are really weird that way! Mine once held the postman hostage for hours down at my mother's home. He stood between Postie and the postal van and every time the poor man moved he just raised his lips and snarled silently at him. Poor Postie, he had to stand there till we came home.

11:01 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank ye kindly Miss Cat.

Jo, if your dog did that he would be put down. It is agaisnt the law to use a dog to defend your home. If he bit an intruder the dog would be put down. A bit ridiculous I know but there you go.


11:02 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Ayw, Morgor, she said the correct course of action should be a call to the gardai. Not take matter into your own hands in any way shape or form.

Conan, would that hold up if the chap breaking in was guard and the house an alleged drug den and the dog a pitt bull do you reckon?

11:04 a.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

A warrant, or being 'in active pursuit' would sort that out.

11:23 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fuck, apologists for thieving knackers.
How does anyone think these people get their new vans and caravans?
Everyone ones this "ethnic minority" are thieving and robbing their way around the country.
McNally did the right thing. But he didn't get good advice when it came to talking to the media about it.
The likes of Pavee point etc, give me a pain in my scrotum. Knackers are no more an ethnic minority are than Dubs, who I hate with equal measure.
Fuck them off their campsites, introduce them to soap and water, learn them some RESPONSIBILITY.

They are NEARLY as bad as those fucking Romanian gypsies we had camped on the MI roundabout. Again the doo-gooders were out in force, who the fuck asked them over here?

Use of force-use force first-ask questions later, it would be pretty difficult ask them when you're dead or brain damaged

11:27 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those fucking Romanians, I've saying it all along, ship to fuck back to Romania, where they should stay, thieving bastards.

11:30 a.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

Mine once held the postman hostage for hours down at my mother's home.

That must have been unpleasant.
Technically could he not have sued for that?

11:35 a.m.  
Blogger Twenty Major said...

I think if you're on somebody's property they have every right to defend themselves and cause you harm.

I would have no problem caving in somebody's head with a bat if I had to. Fuck them.

11:36 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought I would have as well Major but when it came down to it I was a cry bah.


11:42 a.m.  
Blogger JL Pagano said...

I know there has to be a law. They have to draw a line somewhere, and whoever enters my house should be kept alive and given all due process and stuff.

That's me, talking rationally, sitting at my computer screen.

Put me at 4am and someone actually in my gaff threatening my family's safety, however, and rationality goes out the window, along with, if i can manage it, the intruder.

11:43 a.m.  
Blogger galwaywegian said...

You can't go around caving heads in with bats! Bats are protected specieseses!

11:45 a.m.  
Blogger Twenty Major said...

Vampire bats on the end of a baseball bat.

Nonny - when did someone break into your home?

11:47 a.m.  
Blogger Twenty Major said...

And when I say i would have no problem doing it, I kind of picture the scene with me creeping up behind him having woken up aware of his presence somewhere in the house.

*SMACK* in the head as he's trying to make off with my collection of Italian disco on vinyl.

The reality would probably be a bit different.

11:48 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

"That must have been unpleasant.
Technically could he not have sued for that?"
I'm sure it was, poor old divil, but back then there was little talk of being sued for every little thing, the dog never even so much as growled at him, but the post man reckoned he meant business so he sat in my mother's conservatory until it was safe. My mother put up a box down the end of the lane after that. The dog was pretty much just doing his job.

Why does raising an objection to a man being shot repeatedly and to death make one a 'knacker apologist?' Should the Waards have been on Nally's land, no. Were they up to no good, very probably. Did John ward deserve to be gunned down like a rabid dog, and then his body tossed in a field, I would have to say that was an over-reaction.

11:51 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

JL, I think that's exactly it, we can be rational when NOT under attack, but when threatened we cannot say for sure how we would react.

11:52 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Twenty, the reality in that situation is that NOBODY would try take your disco, not in a million years.

11:55 a.m.  
Blogger galwaywegian said...

If he tried to steal my Italian Disco, Twenty, I'd beat the shit out of him with my medallion!

11:59 a.m.  
Anonymous The Bad Ambassador said...

I have spent many sambucca fuelled hours arguing about the obvious flaws in our legal system with a fashionably liberal solicitor friend. "Everybody has the same rights" she would say, "even if they are in the middle of committing a criminal act". "If you attack somebody who has broken into your house you are in exactly the same legal predicament as if you assaulted him/her unprovoked".

Her convictions changed when the 13 year old who relieved her of her purse and phone at knifepoint received nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Her moral outrage was palpable. Suddenly it made no difference that his parents were alcoholic and he came from a broken home.

I can only presume the fact that, as a minor, his name couldn't be reported in the press was of great comfort to her as she had previously reasoned that it wouldn't be fair for them mistakes he made as an adolescent to adversely affect he employment prospects. "What he did was wrong and he was old enough to know that"

12:03 p.m.  
Blogger Twenty Major said...

You know it, Galwegian.

12:03 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I'd say she was very very pissed off indeed BA. And letting the little shit off just re-enforces the view that they can get away- and do- with murder.

12:07 p.m.  
Blogger Manuel said...

it;s a tricky one for sure.......but better to be safe and alive and in the wrong than right and dead.........

12:17 p.m.  
Blogger Andraste said...

We had a break-in last year, and since then there's been a baseball bat in our bedroom and an alarm system installed. SPOUSE still sleeps with one eye open. I think if anyone was stupid enough to break into this house now, he wouldn't stand a chance. Angry, sleep-deprived SPOUSE would have his nuts on toast. And I don't believe the police or courts around here would have a problem with that. We'd be hailed as heroes!

12:18 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not my house though, I thought you just meant if you were robbed in general you kick the shit out of them. I was walking to my car about three-ish weeks ago when some chap stole my handbag, I thought I would have ninja chopped them but I didn't, I screamed like a girl. I'd say there is a good chance of you beating the shit out of them though, much to my embarrassment many people have felt obliged to regale me with tales of their bravery in the face of attack or intruder. So, I think I was the exception.


12:18 p.m.  
Blogger sliabh said...

Andraste, I am not sure arming yourself is teh best approach. if you did run into a burglar you need to be 100% sure that you will be able to see them off. otherwise you will have a pissed off (and probably armed) criminal cornered in your house. Your situation will be considerably worse off.

For all the talk people don't realise how hard it is to actually commit violence against another person. Unless you have a track record of it, it is more likely you don't have it in you.

12:28 p.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

I've never been the victim of any crime . . . that i noticed anyway.

Although I'm so handsome . . . it's criminal.

12:29 p.m.  
Anonymous The Bad Ambassador said...

Me no write the English good today!

Was just reminded of this (I'll try to keep it short)....When neighbour of ours woke up to the sound of somebody in his house he confronted the intruder and proceeded to knock seven bells out of him.

Fearing he may have been guilty of using "undue force" (and, if I may say so, in a stroke of cunning genius), he went to his shed and took out his extension ladder and a bolt cutters. He then re-locked the shed and used the bolt cutters to bust the lock. The ladder was placed on the ground beneath his bathroom window and, along side it, the now unconscious burglar.

Finally, he went back into the house, locking up behind him, and rang the guards and an ambulance, surmising that the burglar had broken into his shed and was attempting to use his own ladder (the cheek) to break into his house when the ladder must have slipped. Of course the fact that the bumps and bruises suffered by the "would be" intruder were inconsistent with a fall from a ladder went unnoticed by the boys in blue. (But I'm sure some knowing nods were exchanged).

12:34 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

The thing is Sliabh, fear and adrenaline change what people are capable of. Also fear and fury go pretty much hand in hand. I genuinely think if I found someone downstairs in my house, or WORSE, upstairs in my house at night I'd swing first and gibber in terror later. And I WOULD be gibbering.

12:34 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Har BA! Justice was swift and served al dente.

12:35 p.m.  
Blogger Twenty Major said...

much to my embarrassment many people have felt obliged to regale me with tales of their bravery in the face of attack or intruder.

Yeah, take those stories with a pinch of salt.

12:39 p.m.  
Blogger sliabh said...

Fatmammy, a famous study of WW2 combat soldiers showed that less than 10% fired their weapons, and almost all casulties were caused by just 2%. What they found was that even amongst trained soldiers people just did not have what it took to try and kill or seriously injure someone.

1:11 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How much do the calculations of resisting force change when guns become a standard feature of the crime?
We haven't had any theft from our house, knock wood, but our neighborhood (which adjoins a "bad" neighborhood) is a common target of drug-fueled burglary, most of the time when the occupants are gone, but sometimes in the middle of the night, and often with guns as a flashy accessory.
Some of my neighbors arm themselves in response, and though they've only used them for waving-around, frightening purposes so far, surely at some point someone will pull a trigger. Something about the possibility of bullets whizzing by our house gives me the creeps, and I grew up around all kinds of guns in the house (in the country, for hunting).

1:11 p.m.  
Blogger Andraste said...

You're right, Sliabh, and yes, I have the capability to commit violence against others. Been there, done that. It may not be wise, but my first reaction to an intruder (also had one walk into my bedroom when I was in college) is to shriek, swear, run at him like a rabid dog, and create all sorts of havoc. This is all instinctual, and not something I'm proud of, or would do if I had a moment to think about it - pure reaction. SO yes, I DO know the bat would be utilized. And that's if SPOUSE doesn't get there first. he's even more pissed off than I am about our latest break-in. He was home at the time, you see.

And hey, we don't and WON'T have guns. If that makes you feel any better.

1:13 p.m.  
Blogger Medbh said...

If some dude walks into my bedroom, he had better be ready to surrender his eyes. I'll be poking them out as I yell to unleash the hounds.

1:14 p.m.  
Anonymous The Bad Ambassador said...

Sliabh, I think I read that recently too. In John Connolly's "The Reapers" if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not questioning your source or the validity of the stats though - Connolly's research seems to be painstaking.

1:14 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I know it's probably true, Sliabh, I'm just hoping I'd protect myself if push came to shove.
One of the first things we were taught in Memnoch's class was to get bloody over our natural resistance to smacking our opponents one. It just wasn't the sort of thing I could do that easily. It took getting a few wallops first before that goes. But once it goes, it goes. Then it becomes about getting the digs in first and trying not to get hit back.
Now, of course that's in a controlled environment so maybe thing are different outside of that situation.
Either way I don't really want to ever test out the theory, it was just I'm perturbed-based on a weekend conversation- that if I was to say practice teeing off an intruder's head, how much trouble would I be in.

1:22 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tks Twenty.

In your home would be dreadful. But, here's hoping none of us ever find out what we'd do.


1:45 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Medbh said...
If some dude walks into my bedroom

You WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2:01 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Of course the Wards are the salt of the earth, frog Ward was doing no more than calling to Mr McNally to sell some raffle tickets for the Donkey sanctuary, all those other times he called, at 1-2-3-4-5-6- in the morning, he was unable to find Mr McNally at home, but such was Wards enthusiasm for the Donkeys that he persisted and persisted and..persisted.

You seem like one of the Pavee point we are an ethnic minority crowd.
Everyone says "how terrible" when they see elderly people beaten in their own homes by intruders, all over Ireland old people and indeed , not so old in isolated rural locations, lived in fear and dread. The shooting of Ward sent out a message to the thugs like Ward, things have changed...asta la vista baby

2:07 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it wrong to find Miley Cyrus sexy??

2:08 p.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

anonymous, you sound like a muppet.
Could you at least pick a name.

2:11 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Once again- why is it that 'Anonymous' people have such a problem reading comprehension yet no problem at all typing? Blunder in, make a wild stab at something, miss, repeat to fade. Well done.
No one is suggesting the Wards were not up to no-good, John Ward was probably there to rob the place-are you understanding so far?- but shooting the man repeatedly and then tossing his body into a field seem -SEEMS- a bit of an over-reaction but then AS HAS ALSO been stated, we don't know what state of mind Nally was in.
If you can't understand that isn't a condemnation of Nally or a 'Pavee' whatever the fuck you're going on about I can't help you.

2:17 p.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

Nondescript van stopped on the lane outside the house, two brawny fellas visible in it. Large 'Beware of the Dogs' sign on our gate.
Yes?, says I.
We're lookin' for insert-the-made-up-name-of-your-choice...
Not here, says I, nor anywhere on this road....
We've got some dog food for 'em (honest he said that)....
Not here, says I again.
Are they vicious? says he, gesturing at the hounds...
They are, says I, closing the gate...

2:21 p.m.  
Anonymous Beswick said...

Anonymous said...
Is it wrong to find Miley Cyrus sexy??

Well, to quote "Owen" from the Vicar of Dibley, who's moral dilemma was "Is sex with Poodles ALWAYS wrong?"

2:26 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Dog food? That's the best they could come up with?

Travellers one tried to sell my father back his own six bar gate they ahd previously stolen. Unbelievable cheek they had.

2:35 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

K8 had a good post about this.

Off topic here but I was looking to find fencing classes in Ireland and I found this

Does anyone know what it is? Is is some strange dance I don't know about?? Curiosity is killing me.


3:01 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

I believe it's called too much drink. There used to be a woman in Sandymount who taught fencing, can't remember the name of the school though. Near the church.

3:05 p.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

Is the fencing school still there, it was beside the church of St. John the Evangelist (very 'high' church C of I), just down from the sea at the Martello Tower.

3:24 p.m.  
Anonymous sheepworrier said...

I would generally consider an invasion of property or person to justify a good kicking until the gardai arrive, but no more. Tho I'd also agree that it's very difficult to control your adrenaline in such situations, where a normal law-abiding citizen can easily step from protecting themselves or families, into revenge in a split second.

Btw, If I come home from being out and find an aggressive drunk asleep in my front porch, I usually ask why my housemate lost his keys again.

3:30 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

That's the one Conan, the lady who used to run it was quite old though, I'm not sure if it still exists.

"Btw, If I come home from being out and find an aggressive drunk asleep in my front porch, I usually ask why my housemate lost his keys again."

And then reach for the mop handle...

3:32 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahh thank you both very much, I couldn't find a fencing place anywhere. I googled the one you mentioned and rang Directory enquiries there doesn't seem to be a number for the place why I might drive out that way later.

Thank you again most kindly.

Nonny the musketeerette.

3:33 p.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

I'm digging deep in the cortex here... was the fencing school called the Salle d'Armes something?

3:39 p.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

Salle d'Armes Duffy it was - total recall, the dementia's not with me yet!

3:41 p.m.  
Blogger artgirl said...

No guns, please, it just means we all have to start shooting eachother. Lets leave that to the drug-gangsters, please.

I can't see it being illegal for the dobermans to hold an intruder where he was - they didn't harm him, just wouldn't let him move.

Clever doggies.

Twenty's disco collection - heh. No doubt they'd be robbing to order.

'Pavee' refers to Pavee Lackeen, the film about the Traveller girl - presumably it suggests that some travellers are normal, human people. Could such a thing be possible?!

Feck it, I had some amusing story to share, bu the image of Twenty, in his fugure hugging shorst, creeping up on his disco burlar eradicated it form my mind.

Wait! Yes!
The husband had a colleague, had a robber come in to the off licence and demand the till be opened. The strangely dedicated employee took a bat from under the couter and wanged the robber across the head.

The uber-crim moved not an inch, but gently took the bat away from him and shook his finger. The employee gave him the money and sat down meekly, and never did such a silly thing again. Thankfully the robber was shit-cool, instead of shit-crazy.

3:43 p.m.  
Blogger artgirl said...

oops, that's not artgirl, that's me. Long story.

3:48 p.m.  
Blogger artgirl said...

Ah, cock, sorry, it's Jo. You could tell, couldn't you?

3:49 p.m.  
Blogger artgirl said...

Ah, cock, sorry, it's Jo. You could tell, couldn't you?

3:49 p.m.  
Blogger Conan Drumm said...

Jo, the multiple idents get out of hand now and then!

Btw 'Pavee' is a Traveller word for themselves, as in Pavee Point and the film you mention. I'm a 'buffer' so I don't know much more than that.

3:56 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Jo, I can tell it's you now.

That robber was probably whacked out of his head already and couldn't feel a thing. I remember seeing a scag-head get his by a car once outside the Five Lamps Pub, threw him up over the bonnet and he landed with a ferocious thump on the ground. He got up, gave the poor stricken driver the finger and went on his way. I would have hated to be him when he came down off whatever the hell he was on.

Nice recall Conan! Excellent stuff altogether.

4:00 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahhh cheers Conan, thats it

Thank you very much, I'll be stabbing random passers by with skill and ease in no time.


4:00 p.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

Ah, cock, sorry, it's Jo. You could tell, couldn't you?

artgirl, your profile says that you're a five year old girl with a blog called 3rdpenisofdana.


4:03 p.m.  
Anonymous Cate said...

ha ha

4:11 p.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

I can't see it being illegal for the dobermans to hold an intruder where he was - they didn't harm him, just wouldn't let him move.

Ah now, so detaining someone at the threat of being savagely mauled by a large dog isn't illegal?

Don't get me wrong, if the postman didn't mind, then fine, if I knew the person I'd just recommend a chain or something.

But if a strangers dog did that to me I wouldn't be impressed, on a par with running past someone's house and their dog chasing me perhaps. . .

4:22 p.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

Would it be considered undue and unreasonable violence against an intruder if you caught them and tied them to a chair and told them Karl Spain jokes for two days?

Sorry, that sentence should have ended with "Karl Spain's joke for two days". The one about how he wants a wife.

5:14 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Who he?

6:07 p.m.  
Blogger Dr. James McInerney said...

6:13 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...


Well good evening to you all, I'm off out for food.

6:19 p.m.  
Anonymous Tinman18 said...

Nonny, please tell me the taking up fencing has nothing to do with you being mugged.

Did you never see the first Indiana Jones movie, and what happens to people who brandish swords in an arty-farty type way?

Just buy a baseball bat, girl. It's cheaper.

As a general thought, if any of you ever do get tried for over-zealous self-protection, ask to be tried by a jury. There's not a chance twelve other fed-up citizens will convict you, even if your tattoos are clearly visible in reverse on the scumbag's skull.

6:25 p.m.  
Blogger jothemama said...

morgor, I don't think the postman/doberman story is the same as the Doberman/burglar story, do you? I mean, if a guard dog is locked in your house and someone breaks in while you're out, how are you remotely responsible for the dog detaining that person?

Em, the art girl thing was going to be for my daughter!

And thank god, the penis is behing us ;)

6:38 p.m.  
Anonymous problemchildbride said...

I was in a burger joint on Byres Rd in Glasgow when I was a student. I had my purse on the table and i turned and took the 2 paces from my table to get some ketchup sachets. My back wasn't turned for more than 2 or 3 seconds but when I turned back my purse was gone.

There had been a young man and woman sitting at the table beside me, but now there was only the young woman. I was furious - not about the money but because my purse contained my folded up work permit and US Visa. I yelled at the girl who denied everything but an old gu at another table said "I saw him take it."

I told the girl she was staying right there until the police arrived and then she agreed to find the fellow and get my purse back. We left the place and turned off onto one of the darker streets off Byres Rd. There was a big crowd of young people there. I held onto the girlfriend's arm and got her to take me to her boyfriend. At first he denied he'd taken it. I told him I didn't care about the money in it - there wasn't much in any case - and I'd drop it if he gave me back the purse. I told him he was on video camera in the burger place and that I was going to call the police. Well from what his grlfriend was saying he was on parole and couldn't afford any more trouble. he said he'd be back in a minute.

As we'd been talking a crowd had gathered around us and the girlfriend had left my side. Then a guy took out a knife. he didn't open it or anything he just stood in front of me and played with it, staring at me. That was when i realised what a stupid position I'd put myself into. The guy's face was really scary, I'll never forget it. He was about the same height as me and kept walking very slowly towards me until he was inches from my face.

The other guy came back then and handed me my purse without a word. The crowd all truned and moved away apart from the knife psycho-eyes guy. Then he left too adn moved off down the street to where the others were mingling again.

I turned and walked out onto Byres Road as fast as I could without running. Then I caught a bus and went to the back and bawled my eyes out. It took hours for the tension to leave my body. There had been a rash of cash-point knife hold-ups on Byres Rd and one guy in our Halls of Residence was still in the hospital after being stabbed. I'd got my purse back (money gone but papers and cards still there) and I was glad I had, but if I had it over to do I'm not sure I would go into that dark street again with a crowd of young Glasgow thugs knowing they had knives. I was just so outraged that he'd taken my purse - it was going to cause me all sorts of headaches. I'd hada really shitty day anyway and I just wasn't thinking. I like to think I held my own, I looked right at the knife guy, but God knows what my face was doing - I probably looked as scared as I felt, giving him the upper hand which annoys me now.

6:55 p.m.  
Anonymous problemchildbride said...

Oops, I forgot my point. It was that I knew when the guy was standing there with the knife that I couldn't have hit him whether he had a knofe or not. I was absolutely frozen, rooted to the spot and I jut physically couldn't have moved for millions. The guy was that scary.

But since I've had the girls i KNOW, without a shadow of a doubt that I would have no hesitation at all in damaging any person threatening our home. I'm always the person who gets us up to examine the weird noises adn I carry a brass fish. I think that encounter with the knfe guy gave me a taste of fear and outrage I never want to feel again nor do I want my family to fear it. The fellow was barely a person, I could see that in his eyes adn with that guy in mind I absolutely know I could easily hurt an intruder. Anybody sneaking into our house now is getting a fin in the skull.

7:04 p.m.  
Anonymous Tinman18 said...

There you go, Non, forget the fencing, get a brass fish (you won't even need to pay for lessons).

PCB is right about having kids making a difference - I know I'd beat anyone who came into our house now to a soggy pulp, whereas if they were just stealing our car I'd probably just make shouty noises at them (& wave metal sealife).

8:41 p.m.  
Blogger jothemama said...

So it's an actual brass fish, that's not Hebridean slang?

That's a scary story, though it sounds like your outrage and assertiveness was as effective as psycho knife guy :)

10:53 p.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

My elder sister sasy the same Tinman and Sam, if anyone even looked crooked at her children she'd do time, and by golly she means it. I think when folk have children they discover a whole new side to themselves.

10:57 p.m.  
Blogger jothemama said...

Read Lottie's blog on this, it made me cry! - High Heels and Low Lives

11:11 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fencing has nothing to do self-defence I just like it, I dabbled in fencing in college but had to leave on account of my tendency to dabble with the instructors dabbly bits after class. I couldn’t concentrate it got messy, long story, no actually it was a short story, a very… ahem…..short story.

Sam, I get what you saying about the shock of realizing you don’t stand a chance. I went to the cop shop gave a statement, my friend collected me and as soon as I got home I was sitting with an ice pack on my face thinking about why I didn’t fight him back and what a tool I am, then I cried like a little girl (to myself mind). I like your resolve to fight back but don’t think I could, I go to kick boxing but still hadn’t got the balls. I am an asshole, for shame, tut, tut.


12:40 a.m.  
Blogger morgor said...

I don't think the postman/doberman story is the same as the Doberman/burglar story, do you? I mean, if a guard dog is locked in your house and someone breaks in while you're out, how are you remotely responsible for the dog detaining that person?

No they're not the same apart from someone being detained.

In one case it is more than deserved, in the other it's an innocent man doing his job not breaking in anywhere, just sticking a letter in the postbox.

Sorry FMC, i'm belabouring the story. Jo made me do it.

10:27 a.m.  
Blogger fatmammycat said...

Don't think anyone's disagreeing with you. Wasn't particularly pleasant for old Postie. Good guard dogs, Dobermans. Efficient creatures.

10:32 a.m.  
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